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Tramvaiele Imperio
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lucian81



Data înscrierii: 05/Mar/2009
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MesajTrimis: Joi 08 Oct 2020 13:34:18    Titlul subiectului: 208573

Nu este fix nici un boghiu,toate se mișcă individual de vagon.Așa cum am spus primul și ultimul vagon sunt cu boghiu motor,iar cel din mijloc purtător.
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deprodio



Data înscrierii: 08/Iun/2007
Ultima vizita: 18/Mar/2024
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MesajTrimis: Vin 09 Oct 2020 09:14:53    Titlul subiectului: 208575

Care mai este situatia acestor tramvaie?cate tramvaie noi circula si cate trebuie sa mai fie livrate?
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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
Ultima vizita: 14/Mar/2024
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Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Vin 09 Oct 2020 12:04:53    Titlul subiectului: 208579

În baza unui prim contract pe fonduri europene, cu termen până în ianuarie 2022, mai trebuie să ne vină un Imperio și 6 Autentic (scurte). Până acum am primit, deci, trei Imperio care se adaugă celor 6 din 2014-2015. Bănuiesc că va veni al 4-lea Imperio iar apoi cele scurte. Toate cele 9 imperio sunt în circulație, cu anumite intervale pentru mentenață sau reparații, probabil. Mai nou am observat că cel mai mult lipsește 1907, ușor identificabil și de la distanță pentru că este singurul cu display verde...

Din câte rețin mai avem un contract pe fonduri europene prin care vom mai lua în special vagoane mici, însă acum nu găsesc detalii (dacă este semnat, sau ce e cu el, dar sigur e tot cu Astra pentru că, din câte rețin, s-a semnat cu fabrica un fel de contract cadru). De contractul privind modernizarea unor vagoane vechi nu am mai auzit nimic, timp în care vreo trei dintre ele nu circulă de luni sau chiar ani de zile (modernizarea nu implică și sistemele de tracțiune).
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
Ultima vizita: 05/Ian/2024
Mesaje: 39
Locație: Innsbruck (Austria)

MesajTrimis: Sâm 30 Oct 2021 21:34:09    Titlul subiectului: 211791

I have recently photographed a lot of Imperios, all of them on route 3. However, one photo seems to display a different route number. Unfortunately, the LED interlace would not let me clearly recognize the content on all 6 photos (they all show exactly what is seen in this photo). It seems to be a two-digit number. There's probably "Fat Frumos" recognizable, so could it be the <strike>18</strike>, or the 15? Are Imperios now operating on other routes than the 3, too?
The photo was taken on Monday, 13 September 2021, 15:53 (here still in raw, unprocessed format, so please excuse the quality).
I appreciate any hint. Smile



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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
Ultima vizita: 14/Mar/2024
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Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Sâm 30 Oct 2021 22:20:45    Titlul subiectului: 211794

Yes, since the summer of 2020, Imperios also operate on lines 7 and 18b, although the line in Micalaca is very bad. Their main route remains 3, but there are 2-3 or more which are sent on 7 or 18b. In this photo, Imperio 2009 is on line 18b, near the State Theatre. Both lines show the route: Fat Frumos-Billa. It would be more correct to show the following routes: 7: Fat Frumos-Gara-Billa; 18b - Fat Frumos - Alfa or Confectii - Billa, but the displays can t show more characters or moving words. Also, i think that „Voinicilor” or the more general Micalaca is more correct than Billa. The store changed it s name years ago.

P.S. Because of some works that are done at the line on Padurii street, the 18b line is shortened between Capitan Ignat and Billa. So, excuse my possible mistake from above, the display might show Cpt Ignat (not Fat Frumos) - Billa.
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
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MesajTrimis: Sâm 30 Oct 2021 22:58:29    Titlul subiectului: 211796

I see. Again, thanks for clarifying!
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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
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Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Vin 19 Noi 2021 16:24:41    Titlul subiectului: 211868

https://www.facebook.com/LaStradaTV/videos/299927241980254

Primul tramvai nou de capacitate medie, denumit Imperio Civitas (nu Autentic), a iesit de câteva zile în teste. În link găsiți un film făcut de un jurnalist local.
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
Ultima vizita: 05/Ian/2024
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Locație: Innsbruck (Austria)

MesajTrimis: Mar 14 Dec 2021 01:25:15    Titlul subiectului: 212001

Oh, that's cool, quiksilver - actually I came here to ask whether the Autentics are now rolling in or not. Do I understand correctly that this type has been renamed to "Imperio Civitas" (only for Arad)? How many of these have been contracted by CTP? Earlier in this thread was written that 6 of these are to be ordered, but I was also told about an expected quantity of 15. Do you know more?
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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
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Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Mar 14 Dec 2021 14:46:21    Titlul subiectului: 212008

Information is sometimes unclear about the number of these new trams, but I think that the article in the link below might set some light on the subject.

https://www.agerpres.ro/administratie/2021/10/26/arad-cinci-tramvaie-imperio-noi-vopsite-in-culorile-uta-vor-intra-in-circulatie-in-acest-an--803009

In 2019, the municipality signed a contract for 28 new trams, half from which being „medium size” and half of „big capacity”. The strange part is that first, Astra made 4 Imperios that are already in operation: 1907 (delivered in 2019), 2008, 2009 and 2010 (delivered in 2020). This fact might be explained because although the auction was set for 28 trams, not all of them were part of the same EU-funded project. The 4 Imperios I mentioned above are linked, i think, with the reabilitation of the line in Pădurii street. Going forward, as the municipality obtained funding from EU to other projects regarding transportation, the remaining trams can be constructed and delivered.

The „medium size” tram that was delivered by Astra is called Imperio Civitas and not „Autentic” (the model that was delivered to Galați) because - as i read on another forum - it has different electronic parts as the Autentic (one set being made by Siemens and the other of Romanian origin - i dont know which is which). As it is said, there was some delay in the delivery (maybe because Astra focused on finishing its contracts with Oradea and Cluj-Napoca). But anyway, until the end of the year we should have few more Imperio Civitas, 4 or 5, and the rest until the middle of 2022. After that i guess we will receive 10 more Imperios, so that we will arrive at 14 on these projects. The first 6 Imperios were bought in 2014-2015 on loan, not from EU-funds.

Until now, the first Civitas was not operated with passengers, probably it has to pass some more tests.

In the article, the mayor is quoted by saying that a new auction is set to begin for other 50 new trams, also with the help of EU-funds.
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
Ultima vizita: 05/Ian/2024
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Locație: Innsbruck (Austria)

MesajTrimis: Mie 15 Dec 2021 02:14:09    Titlul subiectului: 212011

I see. So, regarding the 2019 contract, in total 14 Imperios are to be delivered and 14 Imperio Civitas. What I did not understand from your explanation is whether the first 6 Imperios are part of that same contract or not. Is that so? If not, will all sum up to a fleet of 20 Imperios and 14 Civitas?

Regarding the production and delivery delay, I can tell you that several railcar manufacturers suffered from supply bottlenecks during the last years, including Siemens, Bombardier, and Alstom. Also in my city, the delivery of 20 contracted Bombardier (now Alstom) trams had been delayed by 1,5 years. The last one of these has been delivered one year ago while it should have been delivered by mid-2019. resulting in a penalty of 2,7 million Euros that Alstom had to pay to our municipal transport company. Probably such supply problems also applied to Astra?

Another question that came up: do you know the reason for the acquisition of the smaller Civitas tramcars, although the good tram usage in Arad would rather suggest bigger capacity tramcars? Is there a technical reason such as infrastructural requirements (short platforms etc.)?

Do you think Imperios can also serve the Ghioroc route without a complete track renovation? Are there already renovation plans, or is the route even at risk?

I'm also wondering whether it can with the purchasing of expensive new tramcars still be economical to continue CTP's current policy of binding tramcars 1:1 to tram drivers. As far as I have seen this is still the case with the first 6 Imperios (I drew the conclusion from the personalized football enthusiast cabs Smile ), but this means that the only barrier-free modern tramcars are available to passengers for only one shift a day and not at all on the driver's free days.
I just can't image that this can be affordable, as it more than doubles the fleet size. On the other hand, it would also mean that the tramcars would have a longer lifespan due to less usage. Nevertheless the investment cost would be so much higher.

Enough bothering with questions for today. Smile

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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
Ultima vizita: 14/Mar/2024
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Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Mie 15 Dec 2021 12:29:04    Titlul subiectului: 212017

The first 6 Imperios are not part of the 2019 contract, they were delivered in 2014 and 2015. So, yes, i also deduce that at one moment we might have 20 Imperios and 14 Imperio Civitas.

I do not know of any penalties for Astra because of the delay, the press has not written about such issues until now. I dont think that it will get to that point, if it is not absolutely necessary according to the contract, given the good (and normal) relationship between the factory and the municipality.

The reason for buying the smaller calls is, i think, rather economic than technical. Except some trips during the rush hours on lines 3 (6 if it comes before the 3) or 18B, the Civitas would not be full of passengers - if the transportation habits of the citizens will remain the same. Probably, the Imperio Civitas cars will run mostly on lines 6, 7, and 15-16, during work days. On weekends and 2-nd shift workdays (from midday to the evening) they might roll without any problem on 3 and 18b.

I doubt that the Imperios will serve the lines to Vladimirescu and Ghioroc because of the poor state of the infrastructure (for example, tatra cars are banned from these lines because the derail much easier). There are some plans for it to me modernized, if the Arad County Council will identify some EU-funded program on which it can apply with the project. We (all tram enthusiasts) should keep our fingers crossed so that a big derailment or accident should not happen and so it would not consist as a pretext to shut the line down, at least for some period of years. I do not think that the line has its days numbered (as we say in Romania), it has a good image in Arad regarding its historical and practical value. Vladimirescu is an expanding village, of course all its new inhabitants travel by car, but if someone would make some investments in the line and national road crossings (traffic lights or even bridges), then it might be used even more.


About the allocation of trams to the drivers: Imperios usually run all-day, 2 shifts, and have two holders who share their car. There are few old trams that have the same status (1115, 623, 240, 1861, 1864) but as you observed, most of them are run by one and the same driver.
I do not think that this policy will change soon because it is already a tradition and I bet that the usual argument is: every driver gets to know his tram and it is easier for him to drive it. However this statement is valid for the old trams (like for old cars), the new ones should have the same characteristics for some years and will probably run 2 shifts.

If most of the 34 Imperios will run full 2 shifts, there will remain few shifts to be covered by the older trams.
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
Ultima vizita: 05/Ian/2024
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Locație: Innsbruck (Austria)

MesajTrimis: Joi 16 Dec 2021 01:28:39    Titlul subiectului: 212032

Citat:

But anyway, until the end of the year we should have few more Imperio Civitas, 4 or 5, and the rest until the middle of 2022.


Does Astra have several production lines so that they can manufacture more than two Civitas per month?

Citat:

I do not know of any penalties for Astra because of the delay, the press has not written about such issues until now. I dont think that it will get to that point, if it is not absolutely necessary according to the contract, given the good (and normal) relationship between the factory and the municipality.


I see. There are different business practices in different countries. In Austria (and also e.g. in Japan, the U.S. and Germany, as I know from a former job), such penalties are absolutely common and not seen as a sign of a bad business relationship. It is just an instrument to hold business partners harmless when contracts can not be adhered to by the other side, out of which reason ever. Let me explain the reason by the said example here in Innsbruck: the local transport company IVB had to run two lines, 1 and 3, for more than a year with bus replacement service because of Bombardier's delay (the delayed tram cars would have been needed for the opening of new built lines 2 and 5 which then had to be operated with available tram cars instead). The bus replacement meant higher energy cost, more vehicles (as buses have less capacity), more pollution, and also some damage to IVB's image and probably loss of passengers, because some people used to the convenience of modern tram cars do not want to use buses and switch back to their cars in such a case. So, IVB and the city of Innsbruck had unwanted costs. It was calculated and agreed with Bombardier that these unwanted consts would estimate to 2.7 million Euros. Alstom/Bombardier will in turn try to get their money from the failing suppliers. As a citizien and tax payer, I would expect my city to avoid financial harm for the community by addressing that risk.

Citat:

The reason for buying the smaller calls is, i think, rather economic than technical. Except for some trips during the rush hours on lines 3 (6 if it comes before the 3) or 18B, the Civitas would not be full of passengers - if the transportation habits of the citizens will remain the same. Probably, the Imperio Civitas cars will run mostly on lines 6, 7, and 15-16, during work days. On weekends and 2-nd shift workdays (from midday to the evening) they might roll without any problem on 3 and 18b.


I guess it is quite easily possible to extend the Civitas cars when needed? Has the passenger count in Arad been rising or falling before the pandemic?

Citat:

I doubt that the Imperios will serve the lines to Vladimirescu and Ghioroc because of the poor state of the infrastructure (for example, tatra cars are banned from these lines because the derail is much easier). There are some plans for it to modernize me, if the Arad County Council will identify some EU-funded program on which it can apply with the project. We (all tram enthusiasts) should keep our fingers crossed so that a big derailment or accident should not happen and so it would not consist as a pretext to shut the line down, at least for some period of years. I don’t think that the line has its days numbered (as we say in Romania), it has a good image in Arad regarding its historical and practical value. Vladimirescu is an expanding village, of course all its new inhabitants travel by car,


Meanwhile I've seen the other thread where a possible removal of the second track in Vladimirescu is mentioned to widen the road. I just hope things like that cannot seriously happen anymore in these days. I will keep my fingers crossed! Shutting that route down would also be fatal for the network access of the museum. Aside of that it would in my eyes be nothing less than a crime against railway history.
BTW, the Romanian phrase "has its days numbered" exists in German in a very similar form: "has its days counted". Smile

Citat:

About the allocation of trams to the drivers: Imperios usually run all-day, 2 shifts, and have two holders who share their car. There are few old trams that have the same status (1115, 623, 240, 1861, 1864) but as you observed, most of them are run by one and the same driver.
I don’t think this policy will change soon because it is already a tradition and I bet that the usual argument is: every driver gets to know his tram and it is easier for him to drive it. However this statement is valid for the old trams (like for old cars), the new ones should have the same characteristics for some years and will probably run 2 shifts.


Makes sense! Thanks for clarifying.

Citat:

If most of the 34 Imperios will run full 2 ​​shifts, there will remain few shifts to be covered by the older trams.


If 34 Imperios can cover a bulk of the total demand, why would then another 50 new tram cars be needed (as you mentioned above)?

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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
Ultima vizita: 14/Mar/2024
Mesaje: 1119
Locație: Arad

MesajTrimis: Joi 16 Dec 2021 13:38:20    Titlul subiectului: 212033

Citat:
Does Astra have several production lines so that they can manufacture more than two Civitas per month?


I don`t know for sure, but Astra could build trams in both Calea Victoriei and str. Petru Rares street factories. However, the trams for Arad are built in the Calea Victoriei factory because it has a direct link to the UTA depot. As I saw from pictures taken by Astra employees, trams for Oradea, Cluj and Galati were shipped from both places.

Regarding the penalties, i don`t think that it will be the case. That kind of argument, of the unwanted costs generated by the delays in shipment is totally foreign (figuratively speaking) for Romania and it may be proven with great effort only in court. And in this particular case, it would really be impossible for CTP cu calculate unwanted costs because it could not state for sure what kind of trams run instead of the delayed Imperios. We have several types of trams with different energy consumption levels.



Citat:
I guess it is quite easily possible to extend the Civitas cars when needed? Has the passenger count in Arad been rising or falling before the pandemic?


Extend? I don`t think so, maybe after their warranty expires. Current passenger numbers depend mainly on the school periods. The numbers fell when physical attended school was suspended and some factories stopped working. Also, in some weekends in 2020 all public transportation was cancelled and from then the weekend schedule is a disgrace (30 min gap between trams on the main lines, 1 hour from 7 p.m.). Now the passenger numbers are risen again, because of schools and cold weather that prevents pupils from going hone/to school on foot - mainly from the central area to Micalaca.

With the second track removed in Vladimirescu was an opinion of some local politican. It is unimportant, i hope...

From my observations, for the entire first shift on a working day (school period) the following numbers of trams are necessary>

- line 3 - max. 10 cars
- line 18 b - max 12 cars
- line 7 - max 7 cars
- line 6 - 3 cars
- lines 15-16 - 4 cars
- lines 9,10,11,12 and replacements - max 7 cars (some of the cars are `jolly jokers`, they change their numbers so that all mechanics get to have their half hour break)

This sums up to a little over 40 per shift 1. With 80 new trams and some old ones up to 100-110 we will manage the Arad way of having 1 tram/shift/mechanic.
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quiksilver



Data înscrierii: 07/Noi/2005
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MesajTrimis: Joi 16 Dec 2021 21:28:38    Titlul subiectului: 212034

Am văzut primul Civitas, 2111, circulând cu călători pe linia 7. Posibil să fie prima lui zi in acest regim. Din cate am văzut, este condus de vatmanul bărbat care a făcut probele cu el, titularul de pe M8S 1008.
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Manni



Data înscrierii: 16/Dec/2007
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MesajTrimis: Vin 17 Dec 2021 01:31:56    Titlul subiectului: 212036

Thanks quiksilver. Now with all that news regarding the fleet renewing I will need to visit Arad again next year. Very Happy (if only that damn virus will allow it). Looking forward to experience the Civitas. Reminds me of the tiny Avenios in Munich. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd7_FVaZDKI
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Radu Bialus



Data înscrierii: 22/Oct/2005
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MesajTrimis: Joi 23 Iun 2022 05:46:31    Titlul subiectului: 213817

Rog pe cineva care poate sa fotografieze fiecare plansa de bord a vagoanelor Imperio din a doua achizitie si a celor de tip Imperio Civitas, astfel incat sa se vada clar inscriptiile cu comenzile asociate. Multumesc!
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tcm



Data înscrierii: 05/Mai/2014
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MesajTrimis: Dum 04 Dec 2022 11:31:29    Titlul subiectului: 215122

Nu am vazut topic dedicat pentru Civitas-uri , asa ca le postez aici.
1. 2218 pe linia 7 pe Calea Iuliu Maniu.
2. 2219 (in stanga pozei) si 2224 (in dreapta) in Capatul de la Fat-Frumos. 2219 cred ca era pe linia 7 , dar nu sunt sigur , 2224 era pe 18b.
3. 2224 dupa terminarea unei curse pe 18b , la Fat-Frumos. Conform placutei acest tramvai a fost fabricat in octombrie 2022. Desi are instalate carcasele pentru POS-uri , nu are instalata si partea hardware.



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